Is Katara A Marysue?

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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:13 pm

I always saw it as an extra bonus for the sue, on account that they are skilled in so many other levels and on top of that beauty.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:57 pm

Okay, here is the epiphany I was talking about:

While I was sitting around thinking about Doctor Who, I started to think about the Mary Sue thing. Because as much as I LOVE the Doctor, I cannot deny he is such a Gary Stu in every sense of the word.

And that's when I realized something: I think one of the ways to make a Mary Sue is acceptable is to acknowledge their perfection or near perfection within the work. In other words, Mary Sues become annoying when it appears as though the creator isn't trying to make them perfect and denies their perfection to the audience. However, if the audience is given strong hints that the character is meant to be special/perfect, it's more acceptable as an audience member. Here are some examples I was thinking about in other media and then I'll go back to Avatar:

Acceptable Mary Sues:

Hermione: you could easily argue Hermione is a Mary Sue. She is definitely on the cusp of it in the movies. Yet, most people tend to accept her character and actually like her a lot. And in both the movie and books, her perfection is mentioned multiple times especially her amazing grades.

Some girl whose name I can't remember from Election: I'm only bringing this up to prove it happens in other genres other than the things that have huge cult followings. The girl in this movie Election is absolutely perfect and is a lot like Hermione. Her perfection is accentuated throughout the movie and it's one of the reasons the main character doesn't like her. Yet, the audience accepts her character without saying 'oh she's a Mary Sue'. Yes, she's perfect and annoyingly so but I've never heard her called a Mary Sue.

Disney Princesses: the entire line is to say how 'pure' these girls are, how there's something special about them. For the most part, their accepted.

Doctor Who: He's definitely a Gary Stu as I said but throughout the show it's constantly emphasized on how much of a wonderful man he is, how he touches and changes the people around him.

Then there's Azula, who has the same premise. She's perfect but her perfection is stated throughout the series. It's her perfection that makes the character important.

Then you have characters like Katara who aren't meant to be perfect but they come across that way anyway. And because the creator is trying hard NOT to make them perfect, it becomes annoying. Another good example (though definitely worse than Katara) is Bella from Twilight. The author takes so many measures to make Bella not seem perfect yet she is clearly a Mary Sue. Hence why no one likes her anymore.

The End :D
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:00 am

Didn't really have the time before to read this over, but I did it now. Hermonie wasn't really that focused on in the movies though was she? Granted I only saw the first four I think.

It mostly focused on Harry's adventures, at least where I left off. So because she wasn't popping her face in every scene, I wasn't bothered. It feels that way with Katara. My problem with her (and Toph in season 2) was they hogged the spotlight.

That fueled with MarySue qualities is what got under my skin.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:27 pm

That's true with Hermione. She definitely doesn't get as much spotlight as Katara does. But, if Harry Potter had been a TV series with all that time to show characters and go through the plot of novels, Hermione would have been in it a lot more. Those three are practically inseparable.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:30 pm

But that's a what if, and if they did, I might possibly share the same feelings I've done so with Katara.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:34 pm

right, i was just speaking hypothetically. but id think the odds are pretty high that she would be seen as a Mary Sue. it depends on the fanbase though as well. Harry Potter fans are very devoted...
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:57 pm

I think all fans can be very devoted. There's one fan at an Avatar site I used to frequent who never admits anything about flaws pointed out, and simply states long winded explanations as to why they were justified.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:09 pm

right but there are certain fanbases I think are more devoted than others. the big ones anyway like Harry Potter and Avatar.

for instance, I've never really seen nor met a Tim Burton fan that completely disregarded all of Burton's flaws. I'm sure there are some out there but it's not where if I were to walk into a room of Tim Burton fans and say I thought Planet of the Apes was a stupid movie I'd get attacked by a crazy mob lol. With stuff like Harry Potter and Avatar, I feel like if I were to walk into a room and say 'I think this is stupid and here's why' I'd get attacked by a bunch of angry fans :p
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:12 pm

But their fanbase also ranges to younger audience, whereas Tim Burton's works have that dark and adult theme to them. I don't know that many kids who like his work, they're afraid of it.

Kid's are irrational.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:40 pm

thats true. but still, it goes by the fanbase i suppose. they're all different in terms of how they'll react to negative criticism.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:45 pm

Well take Pokemon for instance. There are a lot of adults who like it, but it's mostly a franchise liked by the majority of young kids. As a result, why don't you head over to a forum and read a common argument/posting made by the average member.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:52 pm

i didnt even know forums existed for that fanbase lol. or rather, i never went looking for one.

but yeah it's not really a big deal.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:57 pm

Seriously? The idea of a Pokemon fanbase or forum never crossed your mind? I'm sure their are millions out there.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:02 pm

yeah, i know it's kind of weird. i should have expected one but i guess because Pokemon and I have an on/off relationship, the idea just never crossed my mind :p
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:11 pm

You're an adult now, so of course it will. When red and blue came out, that was probably when you were around the age to enjoy it. People always say (back in my day, games were better) What they fail to realize is that they're following the footsteps of every other adult and just turning sour :P
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:36 pm

no, that's not necessarily true :p

i can't speak for games necessarily but shows were definitely better in our day for kids than they are now. they're getting better but there was a period of time where the shows (in particular on Disney Channel and Nick) sucked for the most part compared to what we had. Disney Channel still has a way to go but Nick is getting somewhat better.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:43 pm

A lot of shows were good even when I was older, like the old Spongebob and Fairly Odd Parents.

There's two problems. One is that media has really hammered down and watered how much content can be subjected to young audience, because they are 'so fragile' and imitate anything. Only the truly retarded imitate. Look at that one kid who sand coffined himself. Seriously wtf?

The second being that after a series goes so far, everything seems to go down the tube. They literally make the characters dumber. Watch any series and they are actually intelligent in the first few seasons, but after that they don't have a braincell to rub together.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:06 pm

i completely agree.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:09 pm

I'm not sure what the reason for dumber characters is, seems it would be a dumb move. I think it would hurt the series more then anything.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:17 pm

because whoever comes up with the ideas or whoever's in charge of greenlighting thinks kids are idiots and can't digest a more complex show.

which you'd think they'd realize how wrong they are considering the 90s cartoons that were out. luckily, Cartoon Network has their **** together for the most part. But Nick and Disney...I don't know what they're doing to be honest.

and, in a way, we can't blame them because kids these days are stupid enough to watch the shows and fall for the marketing tricks.

the 90s shows (at least live action ones) had a completely different mentality than the shows on today. the live action 90s shows were mostly either 1. a kid's version of a popular adult's show or 2. were shows about AVERAGE kids. sometimes the kids were in fantastical situations but the kids themselves started out average. the problem with today's shows is they're about kids with unusual circumstances that are unrelatable.

cartoons are obviously different but most of the new ones on Nick suck anyway. i dont know why they suck but they just do :p
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:35 pm

Don't knock the 2000 toons, they were awesome to. I always watched Grim Adventures, that show was cool.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:54 pm

i was just generalizing. after all, Spongebob was in 2000 as well. i just said 90s because those were the most popular.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:01 pm

But you were born in the 90s also, so it's sort of biased.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:27 pm

it's mostly because the 90s was when Nick formed, you had cartoons from the 80s still on, and late 90s was when shows like Spongebob started. even Grim was on tv before 2000, it was on Oh Yeah! Cartoons.

basically, when i say '90s' i really mean '80s, 90s, and early 00s' XD
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:30 pm

You do know that's a span of twenty years right? I sure like your math :P
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