Is Katara A Marysue?

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Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:27 pm

I'm not sure if this needs a whole topic, but I'm doing it anyway. So something that's been on my mind for a while is this, is Katara a MarySue?

Asking this question of course will often get you many vile comments and agreements, but I feel most of us here (only 3 lol) are levelheaded enough to keep this discussion tame.

I only ask because I actually have pieces to back up my thoughts. First off the bat is Katara's bending. Early in season 1 she is a complete rookie, not even managing to get a large wave to pop up, or even whip water tentacles in the right direction (when she freezes Sokka or hits Momo in the rear)

Then by the end of the season she's a complete gung-ho master. It's almost too much to accept or bite off and chew. She becomes better then Aang (because raw talent is no match for hard work) or whatever Pakku said.

That's all great and all and is true, but it still would take a lot longer than one season to master, which she practically does.

Now let's move onto her bipolar attitude. You never see any of the other character's getting away with their outbursts or weird moods. Katara will always painstakingly point it out or they might get flak by someone else.

Oh but Katara does something wrong? Meh, it's ok. I still can't get over the "I loved her more then you!" comment. I mean seriously, what a bitch. Had anyone else said that, especailly Sokka, they would had gotten a smacking or a stern talking to, but they brush it off with Katara. It seems like everything she does is ok. Even when she steals from the pirates and almost gets Aang and Sokka killed, no one really says anything.

Or how during the third season they literally make this ultimate move, blood bending, just for her. It's an awesome concept and all, but you got to think about it.

I also didn't like how in the season finale she was the one who finished off Azula. We all know it should had been Zuko and we were all probably anticipating that moment, only to have it fall short.

Lastly are her motivational speeches. Seriously she has way too many throughout the entire series. And one thing I still find funny is the "I will never ever give up on people who need me!" Or whatever she said.

I bet Jet's laughing at that one.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:41 pm

I agree with you. You pretty much summed it up.

When you have an entire series to develop characters, they really could have done better. It really wasn't that she didn't have flaws. It was just that they never extenuated those flaws the same way they did with the other characters as you pointed out. If they had just had the perspective be that Katara was wrong for once beside the Ember Island Players episode, they would have been fine.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:45 pm

It seems that they noticed she went in dangerous territory many times, quickly pulled her back, but accidentally lead her back into it.

I mean don't get me wrong, I enjoyed her as a character still, but not by herself. As you can clearly notice episodes revolving around her were often very lacking. Take Painted Lady for instance, that was her filler solo episode. Look at Sokka's Master and it pales in comparison. At least to me it does.

Yet even those episodes were interesting due to the others, especially the comic relief. It just felt like she couldn't stand on her own as a character, but the others could easily.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:53 pm

she definitely couldn't stand on her own. And yes, her solo episodes were very lacking. even the ones where she was co-starring with someone were hit and miss.

but i think most of the problem was HOW they showed her character. like, you could have easily taken some of her stuff (like stealing from pirates) and given the audience the message that what she did was wrong. the end, no 'okay corny laugh at the end' and that would have been fine. but they never did that with her. that was the problem. the only time when they potentially showed her in the wrong was when she gave Zuko a death threat. but because that hardly ever happened, it was more of a 'wtf' moment than a serious one.

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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:54 pm

What death threat are you talking about? She has a million...
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:13 pm

the big one in season 3 when Zuko joins the group. seriously, that was like wtf....

and the other thing with Katara is that they needed to JUSTIFY everything that she did. instead of showing us why she's doing something, they told us why. they had to justify every single bad thing that she did through dialogue rather than just showing us.

like, her grudge against Zuko. they had to have the others analyze her like we're doing now and come up with a justification as to why she doesnt like Zuko. oh, it's because she has a grudge against the fire nation and can't separate him from that group of people. oh that's understandable, let me prove her wrong though.

or her fight with Toph. oh, she's just doing that because she's always been the mother since her mom died. so it's understandable but let me go talk to her or do something about it.

no. just no.

i mean no offense but if you didn't at least get an inkling that Katara didn't like Zuko because he was Fire Nation and there's a war where people have been killed by the Fire Nation then I don't know what to tell you. Or if you didn't get that she was motherly because she didn't have a mom. I mean, these are cliches that shouldn't need serious explanation and should be shown with mostly images or subtle dialogue rather than just coming out face value.

and that's also the main issue I had with the Beach. But that's another story entirely.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:19 pm

I really didn't see that as a wtf moment. Really LS, did you dig into Ai's shroom bag? I'm kidding!

I'm guessing they might had done some of that dialogue moments because not everyone had watched the series from the start. I know a lot of people who got into the show when Season 3 began or was nearing it's end.

One person even refused to watch such a stupid show, until realizing their errors after seeing Day of Black Sun. So they wouldn't really know everything and those moments might seem odd.

Though I'm not really using that to justify anything. More so just to point out stuff.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:45 pm

^ well perhaps it wasnt completely wtf. but i did think of Elizabeth's character twist from Pirates when I saw that scene. as pointed out here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7XFyQhT1sw

im not saying they couldn't re-touch on things. but there's a way to do it rather than blatantly stating everything. take this for instance:

Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Part 2, big spoiler alert, Harry sees Voldemort kill Snape. So Harry goes to Snape and Snape gives him a piece of his memory that's important. And then he says this:

"You have your mother's eyes."

and that's it. he dies. but from that one line of dialogue, we get that Snape loved Lily and Harry tormenting him because he looked exactly like James, the guy that took Lily from him. he had to watch Harry knowing that Harry wasn't his but still had a piece of his mother inside of him. that one line of dialogue gives us SO much emotion and he never says he loves Lily. it's only in his flashbacks that we see how much he cared about her.

so, there's a way to show that Katara was motherly as Sokka said without blatantly stating it. or why she didn't like Zuko. or anything else that needed blatant explanations.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:51 pm

I wouldn't had known that about Harry Potter, but then again I'm not a reader or have seen all the movies. I'll take your word for it.

...Wait a minute! I could had sworn you made a post in here explaining that you need things blatantly explained to you in the FF to actually understand it...isn't that kind of hypocritical?
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:57 pm

explained in terms of plot. not character development. there's a difference. plus, the fanfiction is written not visual. and im stupid when it comes to reading things lol.

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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:59 am

Hey now, you always tell me that you have a hard time understanding who is who. I try to explain things in detail sometimes, but it just isn't as effective that way all the time.

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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:53 pm

^ right. i cant place a name to a face so i tend to not fully remember the name. i just know what sort of letters are in each name. but again, that's plot, not character development. when you say 'Lita is the crazy one' or something, usually I remember what you're talking about and what character development goes with the person. though there are sometimes where i confuse two characters but thats usually only if their name is similar. like i didnt know Sasuke from the other guy that starts with an S (i dont remember their new names).

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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:56 pm

His name is Saous, please don't use Sasuke anymore :P
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:04 pm

and there's your problem right there: you put too many vowels together! how am i supposed to remember that XD
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:07 pm

Seriously I really only altered four of the five names slightly...

Risa = Risana
Masirho = Masiro
Sauske = Saous
Suigetsu = Suihozu
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:11 pm

it doesnt matter. it's still confusing lol XD

and it's the two S names that confuse me. I got the other two.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:22 am

lol I was doing some searching on Google about Katara/MarySue and several topics came up. Most of them were about bashing people who asked the question about Is Katara A MarySue?

One of their comments about her being able to take on Pakku was that she was angry. Her anger enhances her bending lol what a crock. Everyone knows that when you're opponent becomes angry, they lose concentration. Once you got them riled, you already practically won the battle.

But apparently not here in Avatar (with Katara) Like for example when Sokka took on Suki when they first met, he was angry and LOST CONCENTRATION.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:52 am

it's called an adrenaline rush Lee. you can google it.

omg i just quoted Twilight. something's wrong with me @_@

anyway, yes, it is true that you can get an adrenaline rush when you're angry, in a tight scenario, whatever and have strength that normally you don't have. but that doesn't work when you're fighting an all out battle with a waterbending master. it only works for a few minutes at most...hence why it's called an RUSH.

so yeah, those people's arguments are completely invalid. not to mention, in that scene, she wasn't angry to the point where she could suddenly know waterbending moves that we've never seen her really use before. rushes and anger don't magically make you learn something. or, at least, if they do if you're in a tight situation and thinking on your feet, she should have been struggling more. she looked like she knew EXACTLY what she was doing. which is completely unrealistic.

but i don't even mind that part of the series. i liked that part. it was mostly the bipolar, motivational speeches, im always right mentality that annoyed me with her.

and, like i've said in the past, there isn't anything wrong with Mary Sues as long as they are executed well. you can easily argue most of the Disney Princesses are Mary Sues but people (and me) still like them because they are executed well enough. I think there are times where Katara is executed well but there are also times when she isn't.

even the part that you just said could have been done better. if she had been struggling more but still fought i think it would have been better than her holding her own for the amount of time that she did. she should have gotten her ass kicked before the ending of the battle and she really didn't.

but really, i think it just all goes back to the fact where, for some reason, people are never going to be fully satisfied with the way women are portrayed in fiction. i don't know why it normally doesn't matter with male leads but with female leads, there's always someone complaining about something. if it isn't Katara, it's Ariel, Bella, Korra (and she isn't even 'out' yet), Alice (Tim Burton version), or any female lead really. i've seen complaints about almost every female lead but i hardly ever see complaints about a male lead. it's ridiculous really.

if Katara stood on her own more, i think there would be more complaints about her. but she's always covered by the better characters and is supported well enough where most people don't notice her Mary-Sueish tendencies.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Mon Oct 24, 2011 5:57 pm

Sorry, but if you've ever been in a fight or something (like a sport) if you're angry, you've already lost. Keeping a level head is key to winning.

Sokka's Master is the perfect example of two people fighting on different levels. You could clearly tell that the master wasn't giving it his all. You couldn't really tell that with Pakku.

I don't remember much about Katara's fight to know if she performed moves she had never done before...I'd have to get back to you with that after watching it.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:13 pm

^ as i said, she should have been struggling more. and adrenaline rushes normally have nothing to do with anger. they can sometimes but it usually happens when you're in a tight situation and your life depends on it. which was why i said the argument was invalid.

and that's why Sokka's Master is a better fight scene and an overall good episode.

she did do moves she'd never done before. one was the ice discs. she'd never done that before.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:16 pm

Oh right, now I remember...and Pakku actually was thrown off guard by that. He was thinking, WTF MarySue Territory!

Katara: "Am not!"

Also someone on another site brought up a good point. In season 3 she talks down to Toph for stealing, but low and behold, who steals in season 1 and almost gets everything screwed up?

She never even admits to her mistake either, does she?
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:19 pm

^ no she doesn't. and if you were to ask her about it, im sure her excuse would be 'well i stole from pirates and Toph's stealing from innocent people' or some bullshit like that.

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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:00 pm

Well technically she was cheating. Although stealing from pirates is totally more risky then stealing from gambling people. They're already screwing themselves over by gambling anyway.
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Loyal Subject on Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:25 pm

exactly. and i could honestly understand if she was stealing from pirates just to be risky (i dont know, if i had the chance to steal from the old pirates, i might do it) but she stole it for selfish reasons.

actually, that would have been pretty funny if one of them tried to steal from pirates just for the hell of it XD
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Re: Is Katara A Marysue?

Post  Lee on Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:29 pm

That would be even more stupid, and they would somehow justify it for her :P
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