Anime

I wouldn't really call not cursing "dumbing down the audience" No offense, but have you ever seen someone curse like a sailor? It's as if they don't know a higher level of vocabulary.

One Piece is the perfect example. Luffy always says "I'm going to kick your ass." within every freaking two seconds! How is that not dumbing down the audience?

I haven't ever watched one piece... or dragon ball z.

But it's not just the curse words. There are certain idiosyncracies and certain themes which get pushed up in the Japanese versions of some shows which just sort of get lost in translation and over-simplified in the dubs. Meh, I can't think of any examples right now cuz it's 2 a.m. right now after a very long day at work and my body is exhausted, but when I'm refreshed and able to remember some titles, I'll let you know :)

good night!!

Well whenever I hear this argument brought up, it's the only sample that people can give me. It's either they cut out the cursing or cut out some blood, big whoop. If blood and cussing is refined, then saddle up and head out to a war. Of course I'm only poking fun at those who complain about the said above.

^ I can't give any decent examples of anime but I do know there are certain films where if the cursing or blood was cut out of the movie, it would take away from it. like sweeney todd for example, has a ton of gore in it that most people would argue didn't need to be there. but i think it did need to be there because if the audience wasnt shown what Sweeney Todd was doing to these people that came into his shop, you would feel completely sympathetic for him. you need to see what he's doing so you can say to yourself "thats not sane ....or right." its supposed to demonstrate how vengeance corrupts people. so if you did cut out the blood in that movie, it wouldn't hold the same amount of power as it did with the blood.

i never understood why people felt the need to curse in movies or anime either at least excessively. but people do use cursing to set the tone of a piece and it can also be used to as a method of characterization. also, if there is very little cursing in something and then one character suddenly curses its used to create a more powerful statement and it also changes the mood completely. personally, i think there are other ways to accomplish all of this without cursing. but thats all up to the writer.

the only times where ive ever complained about dubbing out language is in movies, not anime. and that's only because it usually sounds clearly like it was added in and they take out the most insignificant words. like ****. they get away with showing so much scary crap on tv (the ring comes to my mind) and they cant put in the word "shit". really? i think if they're going to take the time to edit out little words like that, they can edit out the stuff that might actually scar children when they're channel surfing @_@.

ah ha! I remembered a show which I watched in Japanese and loved (still love) obsessively, but can't stand in english: xxxHOLIC.

It's the actor's voices, their expressions and tones -- they just didn't suit and I felt it changed the characters' personalities and made the episode I watched rather boring actually. The voice for Watanuki was especially irritating -- he sounded really childish and annoying. Plus, if I remember correctly (and, at this point in time, I may not be remembering correctly actually...) they changed the story of the episode ever so slightly by leaving something important out (I don't remember what it was), but the episode just wound up having no depth at all and I was really disappointed with it.

I'll have to watch it again so I can remind myself exactly what annoyed me about it. The other one was Code Geass, but even with that I don't remember what I didn't actually like... maybe I just really love Jun Fukuyama's voice (he plays the main character in both Code Geass and xxxHOLIC), haha!

One thing's for sure: there are certain mannerisms and expressions in Japanese that somehow don't really translate well into English, and when they're immitated in the dubs they often wind up looking plain dumb and/or random.

Meh, i usually watch the Anime after reading the Manga. i get all the storyline from the manga and the enjoyment of watching it from the anime.

lol like with naruto. i don't read the manga, but one of my friends does cuz she got frustrated with all the fillers and decided to skip ahead and back to the main story. Now she wants to start watching it again (esp. the Shippuuden episodes) because watching the fights in action is way better than seeing them in panels :P

Well books can express stories very well until the main focus becomes extreme action. Some people read slower then others, but watching a fight is way faster then reading about it. So you don't get the same experience.

Yeah I agree. But especially in really intense fights where there are a lot of sweet moves being executed, I think watching is better -- e.g. Sasuke vs. Itachi one of the most recent episodes of Naruto, or Byakuya vs. Kenpachi Zaraki XD.

Sometimes, though, having a still panel of an action shot is cooler too, especially if the artwork is really good. Like in D. Gray Man and FMA. It all depends on the reader, of course!

One thing's for sure: there are certain mannerisms and expressions in Japanese that somehow don't really translate well into English, and when they're immitated in the dubs they often wind up looking plain dumb and/or random.

I don't really know what you mean by this, but I'll take your word for it. I mean after all Japan makes a lot of whacky games where you have to cross-dress for missions...:/

I understand what you mean by that, but i haven't really noticed it that much.

strike that, i remembered an example now... although that example has a logical explanation of why they kept it...

It's like where they always say "Let's eat" ("Itadakimasu.") before eating. i get what you mean but thats the only example that comes to the top of my head =D. i know there's definitely more though.

So having some people say "Let's eat." in Anime for the english dub makes it seem forced and awkward? Hell I say that a lot, though I doubt that's the only example you guys can come up with.

I understand that in language translations, sometimes neither language has an word that means the exact same thing that that word from the other language means.

In Teen Titans Control Freak fights the Titan East or West, the one with Mas Y Menos. During the fight CF switches his remote so that Mas Y Menos speak in English instead of Spanish. There's no way to capture that same moment in a place that has Spanish as their native language.

I already gave a better example then you guys and I didn't even know what we were referring to!

^ yeah i know, like i said, i couldnt think of an example at the time. that was the only thing. but with the "Let's eat" thing, they fold their hands as if in prayer but from my understanding, they aren't. i forgot to mention that XD. so if you just say "Let's eat" with their hands folded, people watching the dub would probably be slightly confused.

^ umm I thought of a couple (EDIT: more like a few :P).

1. Saying "Okaeri" and "Tadaima"when you come home. It just means "I'm home" and "Welcome back", but from what I've seen, it seems to be a cultural thing in Japan where you must say it, and there's got to be something seriously wrong if you don't say either one of the greetings -- either you're being rude and disrespectful, or you're in some kind of trouble.....

2. "Ostukaresama", which I've seen translated as "Good work". It's another greeting that can either be used as a hello or a goodbye. We usually say "Have a good day" at the end of the workday, so when you have someone in our culture tell you "good work"or "good job" it can sound a little odd. Especially "good job", which we usually use sarcastically.

3. "Yorushiku onegaishimas" (ok, may have mispelled that one) -- from what I've seen, this greeting means "Thank you for your guidance" or "please take care of/guide me", and it's usually used when you meet a new coworker or schoolmate, but there are varients of it which are used when you're meeting, for example, your best friend's boy/girlfriend, or parents, or something. In our culture, you wouldn't go around thanking everyone you meet for taking care of you or your friends or family members. It would be considered a little....overzealous and just weird. Plus, this phrase is used not just to greet your superiors/elders, but pretty much everyone you interact with. For us, it's like saying "Nice to meet you", but it has a different meaning.

4. All the pronouns and nouns which have suffixes on them: nii-san, nii-chan, nii-sama, [Name]-nii, [Name]-kun/san/dono, etc. Many times these are completely lost in translation, or else only a shade of the meaning gets carried over into english. E.g. in Fullmetal Alchemist, Al calls Ed "Nii-san". It's translated to just plain "borther", but the fact that Al adds "-san" to the end of the word "brother" shows that he respects Ed and [hopefully] relies on Ed to take care of him. If Al called Ed "Nii-sama", the implied meaning changes to mean that Ed is either WAY older than Al, that they might have a bit of distance between them, that they live in an oldfashioned family and/or in an earlier period in history. If Al used "-chan" instead, it would show that the two brothers have a very intimate relationship, and it's a little cutesy. The meaning shifts ever so slightly, and yet so significantly. We don't have these things in our culture. I've even seen some instances where nii-sama (or some varient) has been translated to "Brother [Name]", which is odd when used in English. These suffixes are important because they tell you a lot about someone's relationship with another person and the social status of that person, etc.

The most fun example is Kurogane and Fai from Tsubasa Resevoir Chronicles. I haven't watched it in english, but I absolutely loved it in Japanese because Fai is so creative with the suffixes he adds to the end of kurogane's name, which he even shortens to just Kuro (kuro-pon, kuro-sama, kuro-chan, kuro-rin, kuro-pipi, kuro-wanko, etc). Kurogane gets infuritated because he doesn't want his name changed, and he feels that Fai, in never once using Kuro's actual name, doesn't take him seriously or acknowldge him as an equal. Fai does it just because he's being cheeky and friendly, and he really likes Kurogane. The thing of acknowledging one another is a really big issue for them. I don't know how they tackle this in the dub, but I have my doubts about them translating it effectively.

5. Using first names -- From what I can see, it's quite obvious that using a person's first name is a very big no no, unless you're extremely close/intimate with that person. Calling someone by their first name is almost like looking at their naked bodies. It's very normal for us to call each other by our first names, and it's usually a sign of rudeness to call someone with just their last name (re: Harry Potter --> Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle. Not Draco, or Mister/Master Malfoy, etc). So sometimes in really bad dubs, you might have someone freaking out about the fact that some other person is talking to their crush "so casually", and it may just seem like extreme jealousy to us, but the fact is that the offence is in not using all the appropriate suffixes etc and maintaining a certain amount of formality.

6. Some gestures have implied meanings which may or may not exist in english, like raising your little finger is a silent, and often cheeky, way of asking whether/saying that two people are lovers. I don't know if that gesture has any meaning in English, but in India showing someone your pinky like that means that you need to use the bathroom. :P

7. There are others like "Nyan" or "Wan" which are the sounds that cats and dogs make in Japan, rather than "Meow" and "Woof", and "Pin pon!" which is an odd little sound that's used in situations like "Bingo!" or "Eureka!" or just plain "ding dong (doorbell)", which (in my opinion) suit the animation better in Japanese than in English.

I'm sure there are others, but I can't think of any more right now, and even if I could, this post is already getting long enough.

Besides:

My gripe is that sometimes the translations are not done very well by the people who are supposed to be pros, while fansubbers and scanlators seem to do better jobs. The other gripe is that I sometimes feel the quality of acting by the english voice actors (whether because of them or their directors) is not quite the same as the japanese ones. It sometimes feels as if there's something of the dubbed character that's missing or misinterpretted somehow. Many times the translators lack cultural context, I think. Plus you get characters whose voices and tones and expressions are just irritating after they've been dubbed. **shrug**

Plus, I just like Japanese culture. I've gotten myself interested in it to the point that I want to go there and study their literature and language as an academic scholar, and I'd even like to try my hand at translating a japanese work into english (of course, I'd have to fully learn japanese first!).

This thing of bad translation is also an issue I have with movies from india which have crappy subtitles when they're brought over to the theatres here. The beauty of certain descriptions, or the perfectness of an insult in Hindi/Urdu just get completely ruined by whoever translated it and put it in the subtitles! e.g. we have this phrase in my language, Gujarati (very similar to Hindi and Urdu, more of a regional dialect), which goes "kayu kando kaido?" Literally translated, that means "Which onion did you take out?". Sounds really odd, right? The true meaning of it is "So what?" or "What's so great about that?"

In addition to this, I don't like it when certain cultural things get westernized. It gives off the feeling that North America has no respect for other cultures and is just trying to homogenize everything into American-ness. (Re: The American Melting Pot and the Canadian Mosaic). I'm not trying to be anti-america or anything, though, so don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there are some things which don't NEED to be translated over into English or whatever. That's almost like saying that those other cultures are not worthy to be presented publicly here until they've been westernized enough. For example, the song "Jai Ho" from Slumdog Millionaire. It was a perfect song already without the Pussycat Dolls coming in and adding their voices. The parts they sing were originally done by an indian singer (whose name I can't remember at the moment) and the lyrics were in Urdu -- they were such awesome lyrics, and then the song became a hit, and got Americanized with the Pussycat Dolls and their not-as-great lyrics. There's also that new song by some crappy rapper or r&b artist that's called "Yalla Habibi", in which they're like "Yo we goin international with this one!" and the only international thing is some random guy in the background repeatedly saying "yalla habibi, yallo habibi". Bah! If I wanted a good English and Arabic song I'd listen to Sting's Desert Rose which has some real arabic lyrics in it, which, even though I don't understand them, I still enjoy! Or I'd listen to real arabic music (which is great to dance to!).

1. Did not notice the first one, but i don't really watch that many that has that comment in it.

2. this one i did not know of at all...

3. or this... you can tell i probably don't watch the subs much...

4. Okay, this is the one part that i actually do know 100%! (Forgot -Tan BTW.) and i have to agree with your second example, Fai does do that about... three times per episode average to Kurogane. and actually, in my opinion, they did an okay job translating it into the dub (Not perfectly, by hey, it\'s a dub.) What they did in the dub was Fai usually said Kuro then whatever thing popped into his mind, usually -puu. (The one i remember the most in the manga was Kuro-Tan and Kurogane was really pissed at Fai.)

5. Now that you mentioned this, i have noticed this quite a bit. i was, proving your point, confused why they did that in some amine until i read that, it does explain a lot...

6. nope, as far as i know, all it means is that you\'re pointing at them in English.

7. once again, never noticed that before...

Yeah, that does sound a little weird translated... but then again, our sayings wouldn't make much sense if they were translated over to another language.

i havent heard of 1,2, or 3 but i have a response to 4! lol. you're right. they don't always include the suffixes. BUT! There is hope. Funimation has (depending on the director) been changing that. You can clearly see this in Ouran High School Host Club. Haruhi uses the suffix "sempai" when speaking to the members of the Host Club while Honey uses "chan" when talking to Haruhi. There's more in the anime but they do use the suffixes. I haven't seen any other funimation dubs (new ones anyway) to confirm if it's just the director or funimation is changing the way it translates to cater to fans who have already seen the sub.

And, since you haven't seen the dub, Fai always changes Kurogane's name. He's called him "Kurger-burger" "Kuro-pu" "Kurgy" and a couple of others that I can't remember. So, he does change his name and it is funny.

Number 5 doesnt bother me so much as long as the show doesnt make a big deal out of it. Like in Clannad, there is a huge thing going on where the two main characters (Tomoya and Nagisa) are gradually becoming close friends but they dont call each other by their first names until close to the end of the series. it comes to a point where someone points that out to them and asks them why they havent switched to calling one another by their first name. so in that case i would think it would be important to keep that and i wouldnt really know what to do to replace those moments.

In regards to number 6, dont they also have a tendency to pull their eyelid down at someone at times? I havent figured out exactly what this means but Ive seen it happen often in anime....

As far as translations go, here's why there's the problem. The problem is that the subtitles are whatever the dialogue was changed to in English. They should do it separately so that you get a more accurate translation when watching the japanese. That's why I hate watching the japanese on dvd: you don't get the translation that you want. If i wanted the Westernized, english translation I would have just watched the dubs (which i do). but when I watch the Japanese, it's weird. so I think they should do the subtitles in the original transcript and do the dub in the revised script. this way people can watch the japanese as it was originally intended. but either way, if companies want to make their money, they have to sell dvds with sub and dubs on it. There's no way they can make money just selling subs. because then there is absolutely no point in buying the dvd when chances are you've seen the subbed version online already. and people want variety. and this is why funimation needs to buy Clannad from whatever company currently has it and dub it! i cant tell you how much i was looking forward to this anime's release only to find it only being released subbed @_@. who wants to watch that when it's online for free? i need something changed otherwise its not worth buying. but that's just me.

Lol Kurger-Burger??? That's such a lame nickname! (I have a special love for Fai and Kurogane. My cousin and I watched the show together and we loved it so much that now I'm Fai and she's Kuro-pon, and I can have all the pleasure of calling her different things :D) And yeah, I also don't know what pulling your eyelid down at someone means..... it seems to usually go with sticking out your tongue too :P Maybe it's something like thumbing your nose? It's one of those "nya-nya you're so stuuuppid" gestures, I think..... And yeah, our sayings would sound weird when translated, e.g. "kick the bucket", "hit the nail on the head"? Lol!

Umm, well, I think with the translation there also just simply a lack of cultural exposure and comptence. Add to that the fact that anime companies here probably don't get to have very big budgets, especially for new shows, plus the consideration that the majority of the audience is also probably completely oblivious about the originating culture reflected in these shows. The result is, logically, a show that may not be up to par with it's original counterpart. I remember when Dattebayo announced that they'd stop subbing Naruto because they had struck a deal with the license holders to put up legal and official subs on crunchyroll, and there was such a marked difference in the language (not swear words, i mean language in general) between DB's subs and the official subs that I didn't like it at first. I've gotten used to it now, and I'm not sure how these subs would compare to the ones you've seen on dvds, but they're not too bad.

Still, DB's subs were, and still are, better. The reason for this is because the people behind DB are not working on a budget, or even a real time deadline. They're subbing animes simply because they enjoy it, so they do a really REALLY good job of it. They don't really care about the people watching their subs, and they're not obligated to provide the subs for anyone. And yet, they're gracious enough to put their subs up for everyone -- and their subs totally rock. There are a couple other sub groups like them, and you can tell the difference in competency between those guys (Eclipse, Shinsen-subs... um can't think of any others right now) and any of the newbies who start out by translating the dialogues word for word, either because they lack experience or they lack the language skills (either english or japanese). Same goes for manga scanlators.

Anyways, You can tell that the companies are changing and improving (re: LS's example of Ouran Host Club), but I think it might still be a little while before we get really good quality subs. Plus, some things will forever be lost in translation no matter what, and I think even subbers like DB can't avoid those losses.

Wow you gave quite a lot of comments, but I never watch Anime besides Naruto or One Piece so I wouldn't have known any of these.

Well actually in One Piece they edited out guns so they become boxing gloves attached to a trigger spring. I found it more humorous then annoying though. They kept to the original footage in the newer dubbing company.

^let's not even go into the realm of 4kids dubs. XD

4kids is for kids, which is why it's edited like that. I don't have any problem about that.

I don't always agree with things America does, nor do I always agree with things Japan does. For example having a show for seven year olds where the enemy holds someone hostage and then shoots them to a bloody death. Not all shows do that, but I've seen some that do.

^ if 4kids is for kids then they should pick anime that is aimed towards children like DN Angel or Full Moon. but they dont. or they should do what a majority of the companies do and release the uncut version on the dvd.

as for shooting someone on a seven year old program, ive never seen that happen. usually, the violence is on television shows that are meant for kids older than 7. do you remember the name of the show by any chance? or are you talking about One Piece because i dont know much about that show so....yeah. but then yes, in that sense i would disagree with that. they need some safe channels and programs to watch =p. then again, ive always noticed that animation gets away with a lot more than live action does. even American animation has gotten away with a lot of stuff. like Fantasia has so many dark concepts and nudity but it's rated G =D.

Many people also have that old preconception that animated tv show = cartoons, which = show for little kids. (Although of course, even cartoons like Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny were far from child appropriate in the early years especially!) My dad is like that, lol. He doesn't get why I'm watching japanese "cartoons" even though I'm past my teens now. I managed to convince my sister that it isn't just stuff for kids though :) I made her watch Wolf's Rain, and I got her started on Honey and Clover, but we couldn't get very far cuz each of us had all our exam and job search woes. My cousin and I have been obsessing about Tsubasa, xxxHOLIC and Nana lately, so she has to watch those too (the three of us do EVERYTHING together :P)

Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, etc -- these shows are "Shounen", which means they're aimed at boys between the ages of 14 and 18 or something like that. That's why they've got all the violence and mild swear words, having crushes on girls and all that angsty teen stuff. Then you have shows like Death Note, which I think are aimed more at people between 16 or 18 and older. Hamtaro is the only show I can think of at the moment which is for 7 year olds, and in my opinion, no one older than 7 should be subjected to watching it! (ugh i remember my cousins watching it devoutly when they were younger -_-''')

(p.s. omg the latest naruto episode was so sad, and such a huge cliffhanger!)

having crushes on girls and all that angsty teen stuff

I beg to differ, angsty stuff would probably be directed with girl animations.

aren't sasuke and ichigo (from bleach) often being somewhat angsty??

and what about naruto crushing over sakura, and sakura for sasuke, and hinata for naruto, etc?